Reacting to the Cavs’ loss to the Celtics in Jayson Tatum’s return to Cleveland: Wine and Gold Talk podcast

CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands, Chris Fedor and Jimmy Watkins of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast analyze why the Celtics are a “bad matchup” for Cleveland following the Cavs’ 109-98 loss to Boston on Sunday.

Takeaways:

1. Boston Is Fundamentally a Better and More Complete Team

The panel’s primary conclusion was that the Celtics are not just a “bad matchup” for the Cavaliers; they are a superior team. Boston’s core strengths — elite 3-point shooting, strong rebounding, and quality bench depth — directly exploit Cleveland’s most significant and persistent weaknesses. The analysts noted that the Celtics play with the composure of a championship-caliber team, appearing unfazed even when the Cavaliers made a late-game push. Rather than being an anomaly, the loss was framed as a clear indicator of the talent and execution gap between the two Eastern Conference contenders, with Fedor stating, “I don’t know how anybody could pick the Cavs to win a seven-game series against the Celtics.”

2. The Celtics’ Defense Systematically Disrupts the Cavs’ Offense

The Cavaliers’ offensive struggles were attributed to more than just a poor shooting night; they were a direct result of Boston’s defensive scheme. The Celtics frequently switch on defense, which forces the Cavaliers away from their “ball has energy” style and into difficult, energy-draining isolation plays. This tactic makes it challenging for shooters and role players to find a rhythm. The disastrous second quarter, where the Cavs shot 0-for-14 from 3-point range and were outscored despite Boston also struggling offensively, was highlighted as a prime example of this effect. The pressure of playing the top-seeded Celtics, combined with their defensive strategy, creates a “mental thing” where the Cavs’ offense consistently stagnates.

3. The Frontcourt Is Cleveland’s Most Significant Advantage

Despite the lopsided result, the analysis identified a clear potential advantage for the Cavaliers in a potential playoff series: the frontcourt duo of Evan Mobley and a healthy Jarrett Allen. Mobley continued his strong play against Boston, scoring 20 points, and his history of success in this matchup was noted as a key pressure point. The analysts suggested that the combined size, skill, and defensive prowess of Mobley and Allen could overwhelm a Celtics frontcourt that was assembled with “bargain bin shopping” and was considered their biggest question mark entering the season. For the Cavs to compete, they would need to heavily leverage this positional mismatch and dominate inside.

4. Boston’s Physicality Exposes Cleveland’s Lack of Size

The matchup revealed a glaring weakness in the Cavaliers’ roster: a lack of size and strength at the forward positions. The physical toll was evident on players like Sam Merrill, whose 1-for-7 beyond the arc shooting performance was potentially linked to the energy he expended defending the much larger Jaylen Brown. This “invisible cost” of battling a bigger, more physical team was a recurring theme. The issue forces Kenny Atkinson to experiment with small-ball lineups, such as playing Keon Ellis at the four or Dean Wade at the five, which create their own defensive problems and highlight the roster’s structural vulnerability against Boston’s length and athleticism.

5. The Cavs Consistently Appear Uncomfortable and Lose Their Identity Against Boston

Across three meetings this season, a consistent and troubling pattern has emerged: the Cavaliers have fallen behind by at least 20 points in every game against the Celtics. The guys noted that Cleveland consistently looks “uncomfortable” and “on their heels,” unable to establish their own style of play. This recurring issue suggests the matchup is not just stylistic but also mental, as the pressure applied by Boston causes the Cavs to deviate from what makes them successful. The Celtics remain unfazed and in control, while the Cavaliers appear to lose their identity, a dynamic that must be reversed for them to have any chance in a seven-game series.

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Transcript

NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.

Ethan Sands: What up Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And joining me today, Chris Fedor, cleveland.com Cavs beat reporter and Jimmy Watkins, cleveland.com columnist and and we’re here after one of the most anticipated games of the year, the Cleveland Cavaliers versus the Boston Celtics, their final matchup of the regular season. And the Boston Celtics walked out of Rocket arena with a 109 to 98 victory. Chris Jimmy, Jayson Tatum returned to Rocket arena and was paired up with Jaylen Brown and went to to work. Let’s start there. What was your guys’s takeaway from seeing this matchup and how the Cows matched up with them on the defensive end of the floor to go up against one of the most potent duos in the NBA?

Chris Fedor: You guys know me, I don’t like to overreact to games or single outcomes, especially in March. But my big takeaway is Boston’s better. They’ve been better all year and now they have Jason Tatum. They look like champions, they play like champions, they act like champions. They don’t get rattled. That was not a close game in any way. You look at the final score and it was 11 and the Cavs made it a little bit competitive down the stretch. In the second half of that game. It was not within eight at any point. That was dominance by Boston. And Jayson Tatum still isn’t the Jason Tatum that he’s probably going to be by the time the playoffs roll around. So to me the big takeaway is, yes, Boston is a bad matchup for the Cavs. Just like Kenny Atkinson admitted going into the game. He said it twice. He said it Saturday. Then he reiterated it hours before tip off. But that’s to me just a way of of not wanting to say what is actually the truth, which is Boston’s better. And I don’t know how anybody could pick the Cavs to win a seven game series against the Celtics. I think the Cavs have more vulnerabilities. I think some of the weaknesses that the Cavs have shown throughout the course of this season, Boston can exploit those because those are Boston strengths. We talk about the three point shooting defense. Well, Boston’s one of the best three point shooting teams in the league. We talk about the Cavs rebounding woes. Well, guess what? Boston’s one of the best rebounding teams in the league. We talk about the up and down nature of the Cavs production off the bench. Well, guess what? They’ve got the reigning Sixth man of the year on the other side. So a lot of the areas where the Cavs just haven’t been good or are perceived weaknesses, those are strengths of the Celtics. So if there’s a team that the Cavs would benefit from avoiding in the NBA playoffs before potentially getting to the NBA Finals, it’s the Celtics. Because I, I don’t know how else you could say it other than Boston’s better.

Jimmy Watkins: Bad matchup is kind of like bad test tape taker for me. It’s like, oh, you’re not gonna. This is the old Daniel Tosh quote about like, oh, the part where we find out what you know, that’s the part you struggle with. People ask you questions off a flashcard, you crush it, but then you put pencil to paper and blank. That’s what bad matchup means to me. Particularly in this case. It’s a little bit different when like, I don’t know, Pacers, cabs. Last year, that was a bad matchup stylistically and that, that’s a little bit of a different case but because I thought that then that the Cavs had more talent than the Pacers. But the way that, the way that both of these, those teams liked to play, certain specific weaknesses of the Cavs lined up directly with the biggest strengths of the Pacers. The Celtics are just a complete team and the Cavs still have some holes. That’s where this is a quote unquote bad matchup. Like you just look at, look at some of the boxes. You have to check to be a major playoff contender in the modern mba. Offensive rebounding is a big time trend that actually the Cavs, I thought on the defensive class held up okay today. But like that’s one of the areas you can circle where Boston’s number two in offensive rebound rate this season. The Cavs are in the 20s again in defensive rebounding rate. Offensive rebounding is back in the NBA. It’s, you know, more and more teams are going into that and what happens with league trends in the playoffs, they get exacerbated a lot of times. Like you think it’s, you think teams are crashing more trying to win possessions in the regular season. Well, in the playoffs where the possession game and all that math matters a whole lot more. Like get ready because Joe, Joe Missoula is going to have a detailed game plan for how to attack the Cavs on the glass if these two teams meet each other in playoffs. Three point defense, I mean, is that a matchup thing? That’s, that’s a pretty broad category to Struggle in. We’re not talking about like specific roster spots. That’s just like probably the most important. Rim defense and three point defense are like the two most important indicators of your defense. And every. With every new roster edition, the Cavs continue to test the limits of how far can we stretch our defense and have it still be good just by having Evan Mobley back there. And the Celtics are uniquely built to stretch that defense even farther. Ironically, they are even. They will be even better built the next time the Cavs see them. If the Cavs see them again. Because Nick Labucevic didn’t even play today and he’s the kind of guy who can take Evan Mobley and or Jaredown who also didn’t play today and whose absence was definitely felt. Thomas Bryant was bad today and then the Cavs decided to go away from him. They were, you know, running Dean Wade out at the five and that was problematic for different reasons. Right. Um, they definitely missed Jared Allen today. Max Stru brings an energy level and I mean, you even saw it on the bench today. He was. Ethan posted a video on Twitter of Max getting after guys in the huddle, but he brings an energy level that can potentially help against. Against Boston, but like, the Celtics have a lot more meat on their bones too. Like, obviously the Jayson Tatum situation is. Watching him in the first, I don’t know, six minutes of this game today, I was just like recalibrating everything I believed about, like the hierarchy of the Houston Conference and potentially the NBA because like, he really found the rhythm. It really looked like borderline vintage Jason Tatum in certain moments, he had multiple times. He had once in the first quarter, once in the. In the fourth quarter where he went right at Evan Mobley under the rim and found success. The second time, it was just a straight up switch like they wouldn’t have in the fourth quarter of a playoff game. Celtics ran on pick a roll for Jay Satum. MLB switched on him and Jay Stadium crossed him right over and finished a really tough righty finger roll over Evan’s outstretched arm like it was nothing. It’s his second game back and he looks better and better, faster than I anticipated at this stage. So you take how good Boston has been so far with how much the theoretical ceiling with. With what Tatum could be, and it’s, it’s kind of scary to think about.

Ethan Sands: And I did not get that sense from the Cleveland Cavaliers locker room tonight. It wasn’t like they thought that they were out of this fight, especially going into a potential seven game series in An Eastern Conference finals matchup in the postseason. James Harden talked about being kind of in this same category as the Boston Celtics. You, Evan Mobley kind of reiterated that statement as well.

Chris Fedor: They can’t say otherwise, though. That’s, that’s the thing. They can’t say otherwise though, because they’ve spent the last three weeks talking about how much more equipped they are to win a championship and how much more they believe in this particular roster. And if they were to reverse course just based on one loss, one bad loss against the Boston Celtics, that would show a level of fragility that they obviously don’t want people to pick up on. Sure.

Ethan Sands: But we also could admit this is a make or miss league. And especially if the Cavs are going to shoot as poorly as they did today, not only from three point range, but from the field. The Cavs ended tonight’s game 13 of 45 from deep, which is 28.9% and 40.7% from the field on a six field field goal attempts. Then your energy can also not dwindle throughout the game. There were multiple times, especially in the second half, where it felt like deja vu. Donovan Mitchell trying to inject intensity and energy into the arena, into his group, into his players. An area that we thought that the Cavs had moved on from. We thought at the beginning of the season it wasn’t necessarily, oh, they’re playing bad, it was how they were playing. We were focused on the process. And now we’re back to this conversation of Kenny Atkinson saying that the energy was bad in the first half, Donovan Mitchell admitting trying to get the energy higher in the second half. How important is that? And the potential lack thereof of if the Cavs aren’t shooting well, that they’re going to be in their own heads, especially against a team like Boston, who work team like the Detroit Pistons. Obviously the Cavs have found success against the Pistons this season as well. But I think the internal confidence has been. The internal belief has been at a sky high, especially after the James Harden trade, the acquisition of Dennis Shooter and Keone Ellis. And yet in one of the biggest games of the season, the energy was the main issue. If the Cavs are going to say that it was just an off night

Chris Fedor: shooting wise, I just don’t know that I look at today’s game and say it was Cavs specific. I mean, I feel like it’s just when they play against Boston, there’s a level of pressure that they feel against that team. There’s a level of pressure that they deal with against that team. There’s a different kind of margin for error that they have against that caliber opponent. And I think in it all leads to what we ultimately end up seeing. I think they know, I think the Cavs know that if they’re going to beat Boston, if they’re going to be competitive against Boston, they, they need their offense to be better certainly than what it was today. They need to make more threes, the open ones that they get against the Celtics. But I think there are more pressure on those shots because of the caliber of opponent that they’re playing against. And I feel like there is a little bit of a mental thing there. I think it’s the same thing when you play against Oklahoma City Thunder when, when you’re against an opponent that you feel like one can exploit your weaknesses and two can beat you if you don’t bring it to that level. It’s a different thing than the Cavs feeling like they can come from behind against the Pistons. And if this was just in. Kenny Atkinson kind of said it after the game as well. If you, if, if this was just a one time thing, you just say, all right, it’s a blip. Okay, it’s an anomaly. The Cavs just didn’t make shots or the Cavs didn’t do this, or the Cavs were missing this or the Cavs were missing that, or the Cavs didn’t do this. But it feels like today’s game was every game. Against the Celtics, right? Like against the Celtics they lose the bench scoring. Against the Celtics they lose the rebounding. Against, against the Celtics their offense turns more stagnant. Against the Celtics, oftentimes they get caught playing the Celtics game. Against the Celtics, all of the same things continue to happen for this team. Most of the times against the Celtics they’re down 20 before you can blink. It’s followed the same thing over and over and over again. So at some point you have to say to yourself, well, it’s not really a Cavs specific thing. Yeah, there are elements that are Cavsy to it. There are things that they didn’t do well, that they can probably do better moving forward, but at some point they have to show that they can do those things better moving forward. Against this team, against this group of champions, against this opponent where the margin for error is a lot smaller than what it is against the Toronto Raptors or the Detroit Pistons or the Miami Heat or one of those kinds of teams. So yeah, I mean, we’ve talked about it throughout the course of the year. They can’t allow the offensive struggles and the missed shots to carry over on the defensive end of the floor. But I think there is an element of human nature to that. And I think there is a mental thing of playing against the Celtics that there’s just more pressure that you feel. They apply a different kind of pressure to this team and they haven’t figured out how to best deal with that.

Jimmy Watkins: And the pressure is born from the Cavs. Nope. This is the measuring stick.

Chris Fedor: Yes.

Jimmy Watkins: This is the team they’re still gunning for. James Harden said it after the game, like, that’s what it looks like right there. That’s where we need to get to. And he said, of course. I mean, I feel like we could take James Harden’s audio and Donovan Mitchell’s audio from last year, the year before, and they would all say, yeah, I’m sure we’ll get there. Like, don’t worry about it. Tonight’s not indicative of anything. And the Celtics were saying the same thing. Oh yeah, it’s just regular season game. Jalen Brown even allowed like yeah, in second in the second quarter. Like they were missing some good looks, which is true. Like the Cavs, objectively, some of these were, you know, gather standing wide open. They missed threes that they would otherwise make in other situations. This is not other situations. It’s not most situations. This is a very specific situation against a very specific team that the Cavs consistently have these problems against. And I think that part of the reason why is that the Celtics defend in a way. Ask Kenny about this after the game. That makes it hard to. To run this ball has energy. Energy is contagious type of offense. They switch a lot. They play drop instead of. Instead of playing to the level with the James Harden. They don’t. They don’t feel like they need to send two at the ball as often as. As other teams do with James Harden. So it’s. You gotta work a lot harder to get the good looks like. The Celtics are a very good simulator of what elite layoff level defense looks like. Not just because they have the personnel, but because of the style. Like, you gotta win your matchup. This is part of the reason I’m not going to dwell on this because I think there was more going on today with the Cavs offense than just this. But going forward, like James Harden is one of the best isolation players of all time. And that skill is going to be crucial in a playoff series against the Boston Celtics who are very, very lenient with their switching. Who will. Sam Houser was matched up with Donovan Mitchell semi frequently. Today, they’re okay relinquishing that matchup. They’re going to live with that because they know that there’s, even if Donovan scores, there’s an invisible cost to that basket because he has to drive to the basket and fend off all the help that they might potentially send off him or Sam Houser also just, he’s a big guy, you know, it takes a lot to get around and above him. Right. So anytime that they can, even if it’s, you know, ends up being an easy bucket Don, the Mitchell gets past him to the rim or a layup, they know that that can, you know, that mileage can show up later on when, when Donovan has a different switch, maybe a different defender against him. Right. So that makes it harder for guys who, even if they’re standing wide open and the ball swung over to them, if they haven’t touched the ball in a while, that shot is harder, let alone the pressure that Chris was talking about. Ball’s a little heavier maybe. When you’re playing against Boston and you know you’re in Nash, you’re knowing you’re on national television and you know you want, you want to throw the 1 o’ clock. Start in there. Guys body clocks are off a little bit. They’re used to peaking at 7, 8, 9 o’. Clock. Today they’re playing at 1 o’. Clock. Okay, sure, fine. The Celtics were ready. They also, they played a, a late night game two days ago. The Cavs had four days off. I mean, maybe that makes it harder to get her the medal, but that, that to me kind of mitigates the whole. You know, they’re so used to playing, they’re so used to playing routine oriented. Their bodies peak at a certain time. That makes little bit less sense to me when you’ve had four days to prepare for this specific window. So I’m with Chris. I think this is a lot of the things the Cavs struggle with against the Celtics are a lot of things that a lot of other teams struggle with against the Celtics because the Celtics are really good at doing what they do.

Ethan Sands: This is one of those games where we’ve continuously seen the Cavs have a bad quarter, one bad quarter that can shift the game, shift the momentum in a different kind of way. Obviously that was the second quarter for the Cleveland Cavaliers today against the Boston Celtics. The Boston Celtics only scored 21 points in this second quarter. They were 1 of 9 from 3. They were 5 of 20 from the field, 25%. And still they were a plus 11 in the period. The Cleveland Cavaliers were just 4 of 25, 16% from the field and 0 of 14 from 3 point range in that second quarter. That’s the difference. They lost by 11 points. They were plus 11 in the second quarter. And I feel like we always talk about how the offense is becoming more and more pivotal for this Cavs team, right? And even when they were struggling in this period, the Cavs defense was the standard. They were holding the Boston Celtics, who had a chance to balloon their league exponentially in the period to just 21 points. If there’s a positive to take away from tonight’s game without Jared Allen, I thought it was how the Cavs defense held up in portions because sure, Jalen Brown, Peyton Pritchard James, Jayson Tatum all made difficult shots, but they had to make those difficult shots for it to be a game for them. With Jalen Tyson playing through a neck strain, with Dean Wade returning from an ankle injury, with Donovan Mitchell coming back from a groin strain, with James Harden and Keone Ellis playing through finger fractures, what did you guys make of that end of the floor for the Cavs in today’s matchup?

Chris Fedor: I thought there were some positives for sure defensively. I thought they made Jaylen Brown work hard, hard for a lot of his shots, a lot of his offense. They made him see extra bodies, they made him shoot over the top of defenders, hit some difficult. Mid Rangers had a couple of turnovers that were untimely, looked frustrated at various points of the game. So I thought that was a positive from the Cavs perspective. I didn’t feel like there were too many matchups where you looked at it and said, oh man, that is just untenable for the Cavs. You know, in past series against the Celtics or regular season matchups, they would hunt Darius Garland, they would get him down low first, they would call for a screen. Then whoever was the screen setter, Darius would take that guy, Jaylen Brown, Jason Tatum and whoever that guy was would just take Darius down into the post near the basket and he would shoot over the top. Sam Merrill held up at times against Jaylen Brown. He fought through screens. He didn’t allow him to get to his spots. And the same thing when it came to whoever it was that was guarding Jason Tatum. Now, this version of Jason Tatum is still very different. This was his second game back coming from a ruptured Achilles. So there’s a lot of things that he’s still working through. Shaking off rust, getting his lift, his zap, all of that kind of stuff. But I didn’t look at today’s game and say, like, oh my God, there are so many problematic matchups for the Cavs when it comes to them trying to defend the Celtics. I do think that the Celtics got them in scramble mode a lot. I think the Celtics being able to beat guys off the dribble and cause help and rotations and stuff like that led to open threes for Baylor Shireman and Sam Houser, and that’s something that the Cavs really have to focus on. I think it does start at the point of attack, but I thought Dennis Schroeder brought energy and activity and bothered the Celtics at points in the second half in terms of getting into the flow of their offense and establishing their offensive possession around like 13 on the shot clock as opposed to 18 on the shot clock because of his hounding pressure and whatnot. So I do think that they’re. I do think that the Cavs personnel held up reasonably well against everything that the Celtics threw against them. I do wonder about the, the size, the general size of the cavs at the 34 spot versus Boston’s length and athleticism. You know, Kenny was trying. He was trying Keon ellis at the four, he was trying. Dean Wade at the five. He was trying, I guess, James Harden at the four at times. Can you consider him a four out of Craig Porter Jr. Who was the four in that lineup at.

Jimmy Watkins: At.

Chris Fedor: At the beginning ish of the second quarter? I don’t know. But like, he’s trying to find the right combinations in the right lineups. It’s just that seems to be a glaring weak point for this roster that they’re going to have to work through. I think part of the reason why he didn’t want to start Jaylon Tyson with Dean Wade is because Jaylen Tyson is technically the backup power forward and Dean Wade’s the starting power forward in this version of the Cavs without Jared Allen available. So I do think that there are some size, general size questions that I have in this particular series and how some of these guys can potentially hold up over seven games if this becomes a matchup down the road. But. But I, I don’t think it was as easy as it’s been in the past for some of Boston’s individual players to hunt and seek out the matchup that they desired the most.

Jimmy Watkins: Yeah, Harden started the game on Tatum, which I thought was interesting for a couple of reasons, and I don’t know that you want to do that for long stretches, but I am interested in this idea that could the Cavs play like a little bit of a, like a mind game with the Celtics if we, if we got back to playoff time? Obviously it depends on, like, how Jason Tatum progresses and how they, how the Celtics find their rhythm. But this idea, it’s. It’s a silly idea. This idea that. Is it Jaylen Brown’s team or is it Jason Tatum’s team? It’s a, It’s a dumb, like, first Takey type thing, but you can, you can mess with that a little bit. Like, if Jason Tatum sees James Harden in front of him, he’s going to want to go. He’s going to want to attack that. Matchup. The Celtics are very matchup oriented in their offense and like, you can potentially knock the Celtics out of their rhythm a little bit by doing that. That’s kind of what Boston does to other teams, is like, hey, we’re going to give you. We’re going to give you some of these ISO matchups that you like, and you might get us on a couple of these. We were talking about with Donovan earlier. You might get us on that. Donovan, Mitchell, Sam Hauser switch a couple of times. But what are you lo. Like, what’s the. What are you losing while you’re doing that? Like, Donovan’s great. Donovan’s getting his, but now everyone else is watching him, and that’s a tough style of. Of basketball to sustain. James also did a. Had a couple of nice box outs when the Cavs went super duper small at the end of the game and they needed someone to keep Kate off the glass. Just a random, random observation there. But yeah, yeah, the size is. Is real. And anytime that, Anytime that the Cavs had neither of Dean Wade or Jaylen Tyson on the court, I was extremely nervous. And anytime that the Boston had both of Tatum and Brown on the court and the Cavs only had one of Wade or Tyson out there, I felt the same. Like Kean Ellis. We may come to the point in the playoffs, it’s one game sample size, but we may come to the point in the playoff series where it’s just like, not this one. Kean Ellis is an excellent defensive weapon in many contexts, and that doesn’t mean he, you know, he can’t get any minutes. He just, you know, he can disrupt Peyton Pritchard or Derrick White or something like that. But I mean, given where the Cavs positional needs are, they need him to be a wing defender and against guys who are that big. I saw a few too many moments today where I Felt like he was a little bit overwhelmed. One of the key warning signs of that sort of thing is like when a dude is just getting absolutely bullied off his spot and he gets called for a foul and he can’t believe that you called him for a foul because he’s like, dud, I’m taking a beating out here and the foul is on me. It’s like, yeah, actually, you’re out of position and overmatched a little bit. But like, sorry, whistles. It’s a fair whistle. And to that point, I actually, I agree that Sam Merrill held up okay today. But I also wonder if there’s a correlation between Sam Merrill shooting 1 for 7 from 3 and Sam Merrill having to eat Jalen Brown’s shoulder into his chest like three times. A possession like that takes a lot of energy out of you, man. And the Cavs ask a lot of Sam Merrill running around on defense, and the Celtics don’t give you the same size shooting windows. Like, Sam’s got to get that thing off quick. So there’s a lot going on with his mind in that moment, getting his mechanics straight and all that stuff. And his body is beleaguered by the time he gets, you know, he does that. Okay, he does it. One spine. He does that three, four times down the court like that. That’s, again, that’s that invisible cost that you don’t. You don’t necessarily see that show up. But I do wonder always if there’s a correlation there when a guy like. And again, he did a great job competing tonight. But there’s. There’s always a flip side to that sort of thing.

Ethan Sands: We always joke about the amount of times that Sam Merrill’s on the floor, like during each game because of whether or not he’s taking a charge, whether or not he’s saying a screen and the guy powers through it and puts him on his butt. I legitimately, if the Cavs are able to get as far as playing the Boston Celtics in a seven game playoff series, I might have to hold a tally for the amount of times that he is on the ground in that series and what it means for him. Right. Because we talked about it. And Jimmy, I think you’re absolutely right. The lineups are going to be extremely valuable in figuring out how to manipulate them. There were multiple times tonight where Joe Missoula went to a lineup that did not have Jason Tatum nor Jaylen Brown on the floor, and the Cavs still could not win those minutes. Derrick White, who Kenny Atkinson was revering as a top five player in the NBA today was leading that unit and they were getting the job done. Whether or not again, that had to do with the Cavs simply missing open shots or the Boston Celtics simply having a speed more mindset on the floor with those guys out there, it can change the pace of the game. It can change how the Cavs actually have some kind of lineups that do that as well with Dennis Schroeder and Keone Ellis and how they like to run the floor as well. So I’m going to be curious, especially when it comes to the starting lineup, as we were mentioning in a seven game series in this situation and how the Cavs are going to utilize them and what that means for Sam Merrill and the toll that it’s going to take on his body to not only have to defend but also make shots. Because that is kind of the biggest portion that the Cavs need from him on any given night. And again, one game sample size. But both Jaylon Tyson and Sam Merrill are two of the best three point shooters in the NBA this season and they both struggle from beyond the arc tonight. So I think it’ll be interesting to see how that maybe continues, especially as the physicality ramps up. And again, they would have to get past two series just to get to the Eastern Conference Finals. What do you guys think is the main area of focus for the Cavs to potentially switch this series around and get a win in seven games against Boston Celtics? Or is it just out of hand for the Cleveland Cavaliers at this point with this iteration against this version of the Celtics?

Chris Fedor: I do think the Cavs would benefit from Max Strus in this particular series against Boston and it doesn’t mean that he has to play 30 to 35 minutes a night. And that’s not going to be Max Strus role. But the value of Max is that if Jaylon Tyson just doesn’t have it, if he looks a little bit overmatched, then he could go to Max. If Keon Ellis, if he’s a little bit too frail, if he’s getting pushed around, if he’s getting moved off his spots, if he’s in foul trouble, it just gives you another guy that you can go to. So I think Max’s role when the Cavs get into the playoffs, I don’t know that it’s going to be consistent. I don’t think it’s going to be what it’s been in the past, but it’s insurance. It’s in case, in case certain things are not going well, then I can just call on that guy. And I think Kenny has shown that he is willing at times that if it’s not going well to.

Jimmy Watkins: To reverse course.

Chris Fedor: Now, some people may say that it takes him a little bit too long to figure that out. Maybe that gets sped up when you’re talking about a playoff environment. But if Keon Ellis can’t match up against the Celtics, max, maybe can a little bit better. If Jalen Tyson can’t match up against the Celtics, max, maybe can a little bit better. And then the next series becomes the next guys or something along those lines. But aside from that, I mean, I think the number one thing that the Cavs have to do is make Boston at some point look uncomfortable against them. It’s always the Cavs that feel like they’re on their heels or they’re not fighting for their spots enough or they’re not winning certain areas that Kenny Atkinson pointed out before the game or leading into the game. And it’s just when you watch the Cavs play against the Celtics, you feel a level of discomfort from them. You could say that they lose their identity a little bit. Remember the last time that that happened? Or it looked like that, or it felt like that. It was against the Pacers. So it just feels like Boston can do the things that they do well, and they feel like they can do those at a high level against this version of the Cavs, against a previous version of the Cavs against a Cavs team from two years ago. And at some point, the Cavs just have to show that they can make the Celtics feel a little bit uncomfortable. Even in the fourth quarter, when the Cavs were making their run and the arena was into it and Donovan Mitchell was making threes and celebrating and. And trying to get everybody enthusiastic again inside the arena, including his teammates when he was playing with emotion and stuff like that. The Celtics look completely unfazed. They’re like, all right, we’re just going to go back down the other end. We’re going to move the ball. We’re going to put the hands in the ball of Jaylen Brown. He’s going to make a good decision. Maybe Derrick White, he’s going to make a good decision. Jayson Tatum, open three. Payton Pritchard, open three. Whatever the case may be. And I just have never gotten the sense in, in three regular season meetings between the two teams this year, including today, which was supposed to be a more informative one, that the Cavs have been able to play like the Cavs, and that’s a problem to me. And I do think that there are stylistic things about the Celtics that bother the Cavs. I think there are mental things about playing the Celtics that bother the Cavs. I also think that the Celtics are a bad matchup for the Cavs, and I think the Celtics are better. And when you’re playing against a team that’s better, the margin for error is so small and you have to win, like in all these little areas where the Cavs just haven’t shown yet that they can consistently win in. So that would be my focus is, you know, try not to go away from the things that make you who you are offensively. Try not to get caught up in the Celtics. And it’s easier said than done. It’s very easy for me to sit here and say it, but that’s what it seems like when you watch these two teams play. One team is incredibly comfortable and unfazed, and the other one is on their heels almost the entire game. It’s been three games against the Celtics, and the Cavs have been down by at least 20 in all three of them. That that shouldn’t be the case. You would think with the level of talent that the Cavs have, with the level of chemistry that the Cavs have, with the level of depth that the Cavs are perceived to have, but it has been the case, and it tells me that the Cavs are pretty uncomfortable against this particular team.

Jimmy Watkins: Here’s a three game Cav. Celtics 20, 25, 26 trend that I think Cavs should be comfortable with and should get more comfortable with potentially this postseason. Evan Mobley, entering today, it’s. The Celtics was averaging like 24, 12 and 4 today. You went for 24 and what, 9? And I thought there were more opportunities as. As we always do. I thought there were more opportunities to give them all. And if you put Jared Allen out there, particularly. It’s March now, but black history month. Jared Allen, if we can get that guy in the. In the playoffs, playing next to James Harden, playing against Nicola Vucevich and Nimus Kaeda, that could be a pressure point. Like two things can be true here. The Celtics have done an excellent job filling in along the margins in their front court, which was a massive question mark for them at the beginning of the season. It was the biggest reason people didn’t believe in them because, like, who are these guys that are playing that are protect. That are securing the paint and protecting the glass for these guys? Are these even NBA level players? They’ve answered pretty strongly. Yes, in the affirmative. They’ve got Some Keda Moosevic is a nice ad, even like Luka Garza who was kind of like a fringe, is he even going to be in the league? Guy has become a nice little stretch 5 change of pace guy for them, but it’s still a different equate. Like Evan Mobley and Jared Allen on their best days are like two of the best 10, 15 players at their position in the league, right? And the big bugaboo for Evan Mobley against the Celtics the last couple of years was Kristaps Porzingis. Kristoff Sporzingis gave Evan Moly all kinds of problems in those matchups over the last two years. So when it, when it was evidently takes the leap or bust, just point at Christoph Sporzingis over there and say well that’s, that’s a big problem for you. Ironically, in a season where the Cavs made a franchise altering trade in part because they weren’t sure that Evan Mobley leap was going to come this year, it’s still still pretty darn important against the Celtics because you look, you look across the positional matchup board and that is the one for me. I mean like obviously Derek White, top five, no disrespect to top five player Derek White, top five player Derek White, he’s not, not in a Mitchell or James Harden. Defensively though he can hang with those guys. Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown are excellent answers to Hardener. Whoever else is going to be attacking from the perimeter inside, Jared Allen and Evan Moby should have a pretty strong advantage with their skill and with the guys that they have to set them up like that could, that could be a pressure point. That could be where the Celtics bargain bin shopping at the trade deadline or they’re ducking under the luxury tax. They’re posturing for a gap year at the beginning of the season. And don’t let anyone tell you anything different. The Celtics were ready for a gap year this year. They traded two of their most important players before the season. And the Anthony Simons trade was as much about getting under the luxury tax as it was they liked Nikola Vucevich. I’m sure they do like Nick Lewis Smich, he’s a nice player. But this, this run surprised them too. And that’s where I think potentially you could poke it.

Ethan Sands: And the beauty of all this, guys, we’ll be talking about this team again. Less than 24 hours as the Cavs are on the second night of a back to back at Rocket arena against the Philadelphia 76ers. And this is going to be interesting because I think that the injury report for the Cavs could be just as long as it is for the Philadelphia 76ers. The 76ers are going to be without Tyrese Maxey with a right finger sprain, Joel Embiid with a right oblique strain, and Paul George due to league suspension. Vijay Edgecombe is also questionable. So it’s going to be interesting to see how the Cavs look at their own roster and all the injuries that we talked about on this podcast and seeing whether or not that Donovan Mitchell was going to play back to back after his first night back from a growing sprain that held him out for multiple games. Dean Wade ankle sprain that he just returned from Evan Mobley calf strain that he’s been dealing with throughout this season. I’ll be interested to see who is and who isn’t on the injury report for the Cleveland Cavaliers come tomorrow afternoon for the night game, seven o’, clock, but we’ll have to wait and see to find out. So with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. Sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.comcavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This is isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.

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